 15/04/2008 There’s no business like show business, you often hear them say: “Its so glitz and so damn glam”. The thing with the showbiz game is that we tend to skim over the surface; we don’t look beyond the bright white veneers, diamond rings, jet black hair, personal number plates, poodles with designer jackets, champagne breakfasts and white fur coats. I’m certain it’s a mask; a front to preserve the public image of perfect mother, sister, husband, brother, presenter, actor, actress, fucker. Music’s the same; we’ve got a tendency to ignore so many aspects of music and song. A tendency to hear what we want to hear. It’s like we don’t want to get our hands dirty and dig deeper; to find out who’s responsible for that piano intro or harmonica solo because whoever it is bares no relevance to us. Who cares? The old English spirit of caring died when people started singing about drive-by killings and gang war with the same relish Sir Cliff sang about Summer Holidays. One such guy, a guy you’ve probably heard but haven’t heard of, an amusing, engaging and humble New Yorker - rated as the greatest harmonica player by legends in the business - is Sugar Blue. He’s a master of his art and a guy you really should be aware of. Sugar’s played with everyone from Fats Domino to Frank Zappa, Bob Dylan to Ray Charles, the Rolling Stones to Buddy Guy, and he talks about such encounters in this very interview. I caught up with Sugar on a rare London visit as part of his Code Blue album tour. We sat in a small, cramped dressing room as I sucked on a Stella and Sugar reminisced on his career, the state of the music business and learning to master his art…
When did you first start playing the harmonica and what attracted you to the instrument?
Well I started playing harmonica when I was about, I dunno, fifteen or sixteen years old. My introduction to the instrument was through my aunt, who bought me one, and then my mother took me to see little Stevie Wonder who was about eleven or twelve at the time, and that was it. I was like: “Wow, I can do this.” I started playing around with Dylan records and The Rolling Stones came along and I was playing along with that. There was a Stones record; I think it was… What was the name of that record? Decembers Children! They did a Muddy Waters song and I heard that and I went to check out the author of the song and when I found out the author was McKinley Morganfield, Muddy Waters, I went and picked up some of his music at the library. And I heard Little Walter on the harmonica and that was it; I knew that I WANTED TO DO THAT!
How did you learn the harmonica though, it’s a pretty tough instrument to master, right?
You know - all instruments have a certain degree of difficulty when it comes to the technicality of learning to make the instrument speak. Harmonica is particularly difficult because you can’t see what’s happening while it’s being played; you know? You see two hands in front of the face and that’s all you see. On the inside of every harmonica, at least back in those days, there used to be a little piece of paper that showed you the technique that was required. I looked at that little piece of paper and ignored it [laughs] much to my chagrin. Because about ten years later a guy told me, Bill Dicey, a great harmonica player from New York City said: “If you want to sound like Little Walter and Sonny Boy Williamson, you know that little piece of paper in there? That’s the way they do it” [laughs]. So I had to start all over again from scratch, okay? I thought I really was good, you know, and then I had to go back to square one. But, I’m glad I did. It’s not a difficult instrument. But like any other instrument does it requires love and dedication. You know; I mean the same thing your girlfriend wants: Love and dedication, man! [Much laughter]
When did you first start playing to an audience? Other than relatives obviously…
I started playing in Central Park, you know? They used to call them ‘be-ins’; there’d be huge gatherings of people - everybody playing an instrument. Nobody gave a damn how good or how bad you played, everybody just got together; it was like a communal thing, you know? People bought bongos and percussion instruments and guitars and jaw-harps - those things that go ‘boing-boing-boing-boing!’ We’d start playing at like, ten or twelve in the afternoon, and it would go on way after sunset. This was the 60s, okay? I never thought about practicing, I didn’t think of it as practicing or working, I just thought: “I wanna be able to hit that note, sound better and sound good with the guys and stuff”. When all the hippies disappeared I was just like: “GEE-WHIZZ, I WAS JUST STARTING TO HAVE FUN! WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PARTY?” [Laughter]
[Laughing] Yeah man, good times…
Yeah! So, I ran into some guys that were still playing and some old blues cats like Charles Walker, and they said: “Well why don’t you come down and play with us?” And they were playing at a little blues club, well it wasn’t necessarily a blues club, it was a place called the Fat Black Pussycat where Jimi Hendrix used to play. So I started working with them and I think that was the first time I played in front of an audience. It was fun, we had good times, I think I made about ten bucks and I said: “What? That’s the most enjoyable ten dollars I’ve ever made!” Then I started listening to a lot of Sonny Boy Williamson and reading about the history of blues guys on the road. And I said: “Well, hey; these boys used to just set-up on the street corner and play, why can’t we do that?” So we started doing that and suddenly I started making like, two, three, four-hundred bucks a day - on a really great day we could pull in five or six-hundred bucks! I was like - “Shit!” That was a lot of money back in 1971-72. It I’d work all summer long, save money, and chill!
In a Stones book I read there’s a quote by Ronnie Woods claiming you were discovered playing on the streets of France by either Mick or Keith and they were so impressed they took you on for the ‘Some Girls’ album… Is there any truth to that?
Well I’ll tell you what, if Woody said it, Woody don’t lie! Woody… That’s my boy, you know? I LOVE RONNIE WOOD AND I DON’T CARE WHO KNOWS IT! [Laughs] That’s my boy - he’s a good guy man a real good guy. Sweet guy, great guitar player - plays a hell of a good harmonica by the way! I really enjoyed the time that I spent with those guys; it was a real trip…
Ronnie also compared the way you play harmonica to snapping a guitar neck in half and playing both halves .jpg) separately… [Sugar laughs]… I mean, to play harmonica, and get that range of sound out of it, you usually need more than one harmonica. Where did you learn to create such a range of sound with just the one harmonica?
Well I’ll tell you the truth man, I listened to the old guys. People like Big Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Little Walter and Jimmy Wells. Man they were making all that noise back before amplifiers, okay? They were raising pure hell with a harmonica. When I heard what Big Walter could do with a harmonica, just plain and simple in his hands - in your face, I was… What’s the word you guys say? Gob-smacked!? I was flabbergasted; I couldn’t believe it, you know? I mean such powerful sounds, so much volume and such a beautiful tone. These guys were doing that long before I even thought about it. I’ve just tried to continue in the footsteps that they already laid and add my little bit to it.
How did it feel though, to be invited to play on the ’Some Girls’ album? At the time the Stones were - in fact they probably still are, the biggest band ever…
Well I’ll tell you man, I kept almost running into Mick Jagger in New York for years. I would play a gig and he would show-up an hour after we left; and this happened about three or four different times. I said: “Somewhere or sometime or another I’m gonna play with these guys, because all of these almost meetings means that something’s going to happen in the future.” When it happened I was like: “YYEEESSS!” [Much laughter] Getting the work with them was really a gas man; I had a lot of fun.
A “gas, gas, gas.” [Sugar laughs] Were you surprised by the success of the album - and the single as well? ‘Miss You’ reached number one in…
‘Miss You’ was number one worldwide! It was the top man. It was… How do you say it? It was the TOP OF THE POPS! [Laughs] I mean I thought it was a great song when we cut-it. I said: “Man, this is jamming, this is the best thing.” For me it was the best thing on the record. I said: “Well this shit could do well.” I had no idea that it would do as well as it did; I don’t think they did either. [Laughter]
The Stones went in a completely different direction with ‘Miss You’ than I think they ever had before. It’s certainly more disco oriented than…
Yeah, yeah - it had a disco groove and it had that kind of little Stonesy edge they always had. It cracked with everybody. I mean it crossed generations, it crossed racial divides - everybody loved that song. That’s one of the things I like about music. It unites people when it’s really good. When it’s really special it unites people that would never think they had anything in common. That’s one of the beautiful things about music.
What was it like to record with the Stones though?
Oh they were great man. It was like: “HEY, COME ON OVER MAN, LET’S DO SOME OF THIS. OKAY, NOW IT’S TIME TO RECORD. OKAY, HAD ENOUGH OF THIS? OKAY, THAT’S COOL. OKAY, BACK TO THE STUDIO - HEY PUT THAT OUT! COME OVER HERE! [Laughter] ALRIGHT, NOW WE’RE GONNA GET DOWN TO BUSINESS!” And Mick would be prowling around like this: [Mock Jagger tone] “It takes ‘em forever, it takes ‘em forever to come on in!” And then it was like “HAS ANYBODY SEEN KEITH?” [Much laughter]
Before I move on from the Stone there’s just one more question. What was behind your decision to pull out of the ‘Some Girls’ tour?
You know, they had their thing to do and I had my thing to do. Let’s face it - DO I LOOK LIKE A ROLLING STONE TO YOU? [Laughs] I don’t think so; you know, they do what they do and… Mick plays harp and I think he wanted to get back to his harp playing. I had songs that I wanted to do that I couldn’t do with them too, you know? It was great meeting them and it helped me to get known and to get a chance at my first record deal and, you know, worldwide press and notoriety… Hey, if they’re ever on tour again and they say they need a harp I’ll be there, because it was great for me and I think it was great for them. If they ever give the call, I’ll play, you know?
Stones aside, the list of people you’ve played with…
Ray Charles, you know, and Stevie Wonder and… Good god man, Dylan…
Yeah, and Bob Dylan was a huge inspiration to you as well…
Well, I mean, it was great. Bob is such a generous, unimposing - I would say even humble man. You’d go into the studio with him and he’d be like [imitating Bob]: “Okay we’re, err, gonna play this, okay… Are you ready…? Are you ready?” And it’d be like ‘ding-ding-ding’ - “GOD-DAMN-IT!” BOING! And Bob’s broke a string. “Aye, wait a minute, somebody get me some strings.” We’d sit there and laugh and talk and jive around and by the time we got ready to record there was no more nerves, you know, because Bob just made everybody feel so secure. I met him through a wonderful lady, Victoria Spivey. Actually Victoria Spivey discovered him, okay? She introduced him to the guy who at the time was head of Columbia Records. She introduced us and she acted like everybody’s mum! So she was like: “I want you to meet my son.” So I go with her and she introduces me to Bob Dylan and I was like “You’re son?” “Yes, my son, YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT?” “No mam!” [Laughs] Bob acted like that was mama; so that was cool. So we were like brothers, sitting there in the studio trying to work out: “How did she do that?” [Laughs]
Tell us about Fats Domino and friends?
Oh Fats Domino and Friends; that was great, you know? I mean to get to play with Fats Domino and Ray Charles and Ronnie Wood and some of the other cats that were there man, that was really a great, great pleasure. Actually I think… What was this guy’s name? Played piano? Great Balls of Fire? Jerry Lee-Lewis - yeah Jerry Lee-Lewis was there too. I had a ball. Shit, how can you not enjoy yourself man, surrounded by some of the best musician’s planet wide? I never dreamt that I would have the opportunities that I’ve had and I’m very thankful to the muses and the music itself for giving me the life that I’ve always dreamt of.
Let’s talk about the Grammy’s… What was it like to be involved in winning two separate Grammy’s?
Well I didn’t even know we were gonna win a Grammy, you know? I did the record in Switzerland at the Montreux Jazz Festival. At the time it was called the Montreux Jazz Festival. That’s before they got hip and dropped the Jazz. I think Koko Taylor was there, Ricky Lee Jones was there…
.jpg) (The door directly behind Blue swings open, hitting the back of his chair, sharply. A young, rugged French guy with greasy dreadlocks peers through and apologises as Blue turns to face him)
ALRIGHT! YOU DON’T LIKE ME, I CAN TELL! [Followed by much laughter]
(The French guy asks where he can smoke. Blue and I tell him you can only go outside. The French guy thanks us and starts rummaging around in the room for a can of Coke before leaving)
Ricky Lee Jones was there and… let me see… Brandford Marsalis and his brother the trumpet player; I can’t think of his name now. B. B. King was there; a lot of really great players. I think Stevie Ray Vaughn was there - and it was great man. Actually the real bomb was the jam session, which nobody recorded! Well somebody recorded it but I think they better not put it on record or somebody’s going to jail [laughs]. I remember I had to follow Stevie Ray Vaughn as a solo act, just me and my harmonica. I’m like: “What the hell am I supposed to after all that god damn - RRROAWL!” And he was like: “Just go out there and do what you do” - so I did. And the record won a Grammy, much to my surprise. When they presented it to me I was surprised, but very gratified and appreciative.
Blue, I’m going to talk about harmonicas as a modern instrument. I know you’re a modest guy, but you‘re regarded as one of the best harmonica players of the last century…
Well gee-whiz, that’s nice to know! [Laughs]
You are - but that only seems to be among certain harmonica, blues and music enthusiasts. When you started playing the harmonica was a popular instrument, do you think the reason it’s less popular now is due to the modern audience and…
Well I’ll tell you what man, when I was a kid the harmonica wasn’t very popular – it really wasn’t. It was very rare that it was played that much. I mean Bob Dylan played it a little bit, Stevie Wonder played it, but outside of those guys it wasn’t really that well known. Jagger played some and stuff but it wasn’t really looked at as an important instrument, you know?
What, you mean in the mainstream? Because obviously it was widely used in traditional blues?
Well, you know, there were some guys like Big Walter and Little Walter and Sonny Boy and stuff, but these guys weren’t really known to a large audience. They were basically known to the blues audience and some rockers. You know when harmonica really popped back onto the scene? I think it really came back with ‘Miss You’ - okay? When that harp part sounded in people’s ears and the solo part, people were going: “What the hell is that?” I’m glad to have been a part of that - I think it really brought the harmonica back to the forefront of music.
[Blues phone rings and he excuses himself, leaves the room and re-enters about a minute later]
[Speaking on phone] Okay… Well, good, man. I’ve got to go man, I’ll talk to you later - I’ve gotta go. [Hangs-up phone] Man I shouldn’t have done that. [Laughs]
You’ve made the blues sound your own; given a certain funk to it. Was that your own interpretation or…
Well I remember way back when I was trying to sound like Little Walter. There was a guitar player called Larry Johnson, who I’ll never forget as long as I live. I was doing my best Little Walter copy licks and I thought I had gotten as close to Little Walter as anybody was gonna get. Larry told me, he says: “You know, you sounded exactly like Walter tonight”. I said “Yeah” and I was feeling all great and he says: “But god-damnit I’m not Muddy Waters and I don’t need that kind of shit.” He said: “Now find something - Little Walter lived and died making that his sound! Now, you see that fine sound, if you can’t find your own sound, find another job!” From that day on I started trying to find my own sound. That was very handy - it was very important. I’ll never forget it because… He shocked me; he really did shock me and he was right to. You’ll never sound as good as somebody else doing there own style. You have to come up with your own style. Its like ‘damn’, you know? If you don’t have anything to say that’s important enough to say your way - shut up! [Laughs]
You’ve been touring the Code Blue tour for sometime now, how’s it been going?
Hey man, it’s been doing very well. We’ve just come back from doing a tour of the United States… We continued the tour in Italy and we’ve also been up to Switzerland. We’re heading for Hungary soon. It’s going well, you know? We’ve finally got to drop in on the Queen’s realm and to see how her son and stuff dig what we’re doing. And by the way old girl, you’re invited if you wanna show up!? [Laughs]
I’m of the opinion that unless you’re inspired by older records, music isn’t particularly inspiring now. During the era you started playing would you say it was decidedly more so?
So many people… I mean the music has become such an industrial monster that it tends to… It dehumanises it! It’s like “If I’m not a perfect little tart with plastic boobies, you know, and a thousand dollar hair-cut I can’t be an artist”. I’m sorry, that’s not the way it goes. At least not in my day...
Are there any modern acts you particularly like?
Well, I don’t know how modern they are but I love Stevie Wonder; I love Prince… let me see… I mean, I’m an old school kind of guy. You know with a lot of the new stuff man, there’s just not enough melody; there’s not enough meaning. I don’t know, maybe I’ve gotten too old that I don’t get it. But to me, just having your nosed pierced doesn’t make you a musician, you know? I remember back when Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix and all that kind of stuff was on and it was like “Guitar players forgot how to play the fucking guitar! Now all they do is slam-it, they put a bunch of effects on it, but they don’t know how to  solo; they don’t know how to use the instrument to speak!” I say that’s a great loss musically - I don’t envy the youth of today and the music that they have. I don’t. But that’s life. But I figure like this: After a while they get tired of all that noise and then expect some music from the people they’re listening to. But they’re not going to get it until they expect it.
Finally, any plans to collaborate or tour again in the future?
Well actually I’ve got a thing that’s coming up with [former Stone and solo artist] Mick Taylor. We’re going to be doing a thing together here soon. Keep an eye on my website and you’ll see it coming up. Or look on his website and I’m sure you’ll see it there…
And that just about sums it up; unless there’s anything you’d like to add?
Keep rocking!
To find out more about Sugar Blue, including a biography, discography, tour dates and news visit www.sugar-blue.com
Words: Dangerous Dave Dryden |
